Free Will nonstampcollector style?

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Free Will nonstampcollector style?

by Skatcha @ Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 – 09:44:44

i belive all religious and non religious people should watch nonstampcollector on the net

Look at this video on free will

nonstampcollector writes,"We are always reminded by Christians that God gave us free will. Indeed, the wrongful exercise of free will back in the Garden of Eden was what stuffed up all of creation.
But is it free will if it so closely resembles blackmail?
Is it free will when someone has a gun pointed in your face?"

So what do you think about free will?

Has nonstampcollector got a point?

enjoy and peace to all! with all my heart xXx
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34 Comments to Free Will nonstampcollector style?

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- juliepenkova ^Pro
- http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 11:33:06
I have found the subject of free will fascinating
as I too truly doubt it.
I did a post here a while back which asked the question
do we have free will or is it just free action
I have done extensive research on this subject and do feel we do not have free will but we are accountable for our actions and this is the crusial key I feel!
Every thought we think is influenced by external factors!! our actions are all we have via sincere intentions to the best of our human capacity!!
Many will disagree and feel strongly to the fact free will exists!!
The video indeed shows how matters look to me
although many people manipulate our thoughts via
clever means... and then we think ... hey whats the real catch!!
Freedom is a matter of mega debate indeed !!

Nice to meet you
- - SeasideMan ^Pro
  - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 20:43:46
  I agree Julie, we impact others and they affect us.
  - - juliepenkova ^Pro
    - http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
    - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 21:16:19
    Mind manipulation with rules and conditions...
    so where is the genuine free will within the Bible???... considering its history and dogma too!!
    I see the Fear element alright !!
    Life itself is all cause and effect...
    we all impact on each other
    
    Simply be I say... not a follower ... but a creative
    individual!!
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- sarangijibt
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 11:40:58
free will depends on the capacity to decide based on facts. Thus free will is first of all a matter of education and information. You must be able to achieve information and evaluate it. Then decide if you can bear the consequences of your decisions. If you cannot evaluate then you must believe. If you think you can evaluate you need not believe. Stand with your decision erect as a human being. Before your God.
- - SeasideMan ^Pro
  - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 17:13:05
  I agree that choosing well requires good information. The most crucial piece of information needed here is whether god exists, or not. I think probably not, so the carrot and stick of heaven and hell mean nothing to me.
  - - sarangijibt
    - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 19:43:43
    But the carrot and the stick were only churche's inventions, isn't it?
    Jesus only promised positive things for those to follow him. The positive stuff could also be found in other ways!
    - - juliepenkova ^Pro
      - http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
      - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 20:15:28
      Hi Sarangijibt
      The Church is another issue completely
      the issue is the manipulation factor which is clearly
      shown within the video...
      It looks like we have the choice but actually not without
      conditions.
      The biggest manipulation the devise is the idea that you
      feel you are being rewarded of a pleasant afterlife...
      but the conditions layed out are FEAR BASED!!
      a pleasant after life or a horrid one...
      Other beliefs do not bargain with us...
      What is sad is the denial of other options that do give
      hope without a consequence!!
      Other options are freedom!!
      No sin no fire and hell.... no fear!!
      No internal damnation....
      No control....
      Follow that which does not manipulate...
      I feel you know so much regarding the positive within
      spirtitual enlightenment and the knowledge to regarding
      matters like S.E.T.I. Which goes beyond religion
      and deals with matters like the disclosure project
      and the Project Camelot...
      www.projectcamelot.org
      All this can not be ignored and makes one really reflect
      on spiritual afairs!!
      - stmss
        
        http://hopechild1.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 08:49:54
        
        Hi Julie, I looked at Project Camelot link but it was a little busy and I didn't have time to explore much. Is there a possibility that you might have time to do a post on it here ?(pretty please with roses on.)
        
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        juliepenkova ^Pro
        
        http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 13:39:15
        
        I will do soon!!
        It has strong connections to my Anunaki post!!
        And really many feel uncomfortable with the prospect.
        It is in connection with astronomy and the planet alighnments and E.T. life.
        How we have always been observed and watched through
        the ages..
        Uncomfortable as may seem it will have a radical shif
        in how we think on spiritual affairs...
        All is not how it seems!!
        The Bible as do other scripture touch on science
        and the connection with the universe but to truly
        touch base one has to look at all aspects of this
        vast universe / multiverse.
        
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        stmss
        
        http://hopechild1.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 16:03:36
        
        Thanks Julie,that's great, the Anunaki post generated a lot of interest and was a fascinating topic so it will be interesting to see what response it gets.
        
        But a lot of people believe in close encounters of any kind so there may be a lot of support for it. x
        
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    - - SeasideMan ^Pro
      - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 20:39:24
      No, Jesus used the same carrot and stick approach himself. He mentions hell 70 times in the New Testament. Here are just 2 of those 70:
      
      Matthew 13:42 "... And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
      
      Mark 9:47 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire"
      
      And the carrot comes up quite a few times too:
      
      "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- http://www.timwade.wordpress.com
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 11:59:35
We can argue all day long that free will given by a sovereign - but albeit benevolent - dictator is in fact not free will. But I don't think this is the question that needs to be asked in light of this video.

The question that needs to be asked is "Does this video correctly portray the choice of free will as the Bible the Bible posits free will?" I would argue that it does not.

In as much as I understand the Bible it begins with the book of Genesis which opens with a story of a God who is the Creator of all things. Right there we see the absence of free will. Man did not choose to be created. Second, God places him in a garden which will serve as the man's home. Again, no free will as to where he is going to live. But wait, it gets better.

Then God plants two trees with special abilities. One tree bears a fruit that will tell you that you are naked; the other tree has a fruit that will let you live forever. He tells Man to not eat of the tree that will tell him he is naked lest he die. Now we're getting into free will. Eat and die; don't eat and live. Sounds like free will to me.

Here is the point that I wish to make, regardless of whether a person is Christian or Pagan. Where does it say that we have to agree with the negative consequences of our choices in order to have free will. I tell my children to work hard, study hard, and one day their hard work ethic will reap them great reward. On the other hand, choose to be slothful and you be forced to live on the dole. Where is the violation of free will?

This video portrayed God as an evil tyrant who kills people who do not obey Him. But does the Bible make such a statement about God. If you think it does, show me where. What I see is a God that says, "Our actions have consequences."

Stick your hand in a fire and it will burn. Marry someone who does not share your spiritual values and you will be at odds with one another. Choose to follow Jesus and he will give you eternal life. Choose to follow your limited understanding and it will lead to your eternal demise.

I could go on, but I think I've said enough to make my point. If I have misstated the Bible's position on this subject please do correct me. However, I think what we are truly talking about here is a God who simply chooses to maintain the boundaries of the universe with regard to the consequences of our choices.
- - SeasideMan ^Pro
  - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 14:36:52
  Did you watch the 2nd video Tim? It deals with Your issue here:
  
  "Choose to follow Jesus and he will give you eternal life. Choose to follow your limited understanding and it will lead to your eternal demise"
  
  As I note below, this is a choice in the same way that blackmail and extortion are choices. There is a 3rd path: you can choose to think there is no god, make your own choices about life and not suffer "eternal demise".
  
  "This video portrayed God as an evil tyrant who kills people who do not obey Him. But does the Bible make such a statement about God. If you think it does, show me where"
  
  Leviticus 26. This is a particularly nice bit:
  
  "27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you"
  
  Tom.
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - http://www.timwade.wordpress.com
    - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 15:50:39
    Tom, I did not realize there was a second video, so I went back and watched it, and then watched the third as well. Thanks for pointing this out to me.
    
    As for your answer from Leviticus, I can not argue with it, and even expected it. But I want to ask you a question. Did not God tell Israel about the consequences of their choice BEFORE they chose to sin? Did they not have a free will.
    
    Another question I would have to ask in light of this context is whether or not God has a right to be sovereign? How sovereign is sovereign if in the end those persons under you negate your sovereignty? If my children disobey me and I as their father do nothing to correct their behavior, am I sovereign over my home?
    
    I must be honest and say that purely from a philosophical perspective I find God's sovereignty and man's free will to be in diametric opposition to one another. What say ye?
    - - SeasideMan ^Pro
      - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 16:24:51
      I can't help but wonder why you would ask people for biblical evidence that god was "an evil tyrant who kills people who do not obey Him" if you "expected" Leviticus 26 to be mentioned. The text is utterly clear on the point: do what I say and you get rewards, don't and you get hideously punished. I'm baffled as to why you would ask that when you already knew the answer.
      
      -----
      
      You ask if they had free will. Here is the definition of free in this context:
      
      "free: exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted"
      
      I'd say that doesn't apply, wouldn't you?
      - deleted user (Visitor)
        
        http://www.timwade.wordpress.com
        
        Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 16:52:53
        
        I asked for biblical evidence that God was "an evil tyrant who kills people who do not obey Him" and expected the Levitical answer because so many people only see God's actions within the context of free will as mean and evil. What about grace?
        
        One of the ways I interpret the Pentateuch is that of a book telling half of a story that is not completed until the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If man's free will existed only in light of a relationship with a mean hateful God then I can promise you that I would not be a Christian today.
        
        But I see the OT examples of wrath (i.e. Leviticus 26) as a statement of God's sovereignty which is then followed up by the New Testament statement of grace that says in a nutshell, "God is still sovereign and can kick your ass, but chooses not too if you believe that He sent His Son Jesus to die for your sins.
        
        Yes, I know the videos touched on both sides of this coin. Still it amazes me how many people want to harp on the negative aspect of God's sovereignty as an argument against free will. Why not raise a fuss over the notion that He forgives murders and rapists who use their free will to believe in His Son?
        
        I might as well go ahead and tell you that from a human standpoint I believe that man has a free will and therefore can choose. However, in a spiritual context I do not believe that we are free and hold to the belief that ultimately God is going to have His way, whether understand it or not. In other words, the power of God may very well be working in you, me, or any other person apart from our human understanding to do His work and will without our consent.
        
        To put it succinctly, I simply do not believe that man has the ability to overcome God regardless of what we choose. Anything less than His supreme will being carried out happens, in my opinion, as decided act on His part to not exercise his sovereign authority over a matter. But that is just pure conjecture on my part. I'll shut up now.
        
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        SeasideMan ^Pro
        
        Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 17:10:40
        
        "One of the ways I interpret the Pentateuch is that of a book telling half of a story that is not completed until the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If man's free will existed only in light of a relationship with a mean hateful God then I can promise you that I would not be a Christian today"
        
        It would be interesting to get the comment of a devout Jew on this.
        
        "Why not raise a fuss over the notion that He forgives murders and rapists who use their free will to believe in His Son?"
        
        I do find this problematic, but it is beyond the scope of this particular discussion. Perhaps we can thrash this one out on another occasion...
        
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        stmss
        
        http://hopechild1.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 08:46:22
        
        'To put it succinctly, I simply do not believe that man has the ability to overcome God regardless of what we choose.'
        
        Again, I think you have something here Tim, and it would certainly explain why when we flee from a particular situation,it is replayed in our lives time and time again until we face up to it and deal with it.
        
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        safriz
        
        http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 15:19:19
        
        I agree on "when we flee from a particular situation,it is replayed in our lives time and time again until we face up to it and deal with it".
        Very enlightening little comment.Thanks.
        
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        stmss
        
        http://hopechild1.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 16:07:16
        
        Thanks safriz-I'm speaking from bitter experience I'm afraid not a flash of inspiration
        
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        juliepenkova ^Pro
        
        http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
        
        Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 16:26:36
        
        What is your interpretation on the quote
        "Eat and die or don't eat and live....
        followed by..."That sounds like free will to me"
        regarding a comment within this post relating to the
        so called garden of Eden story...
        free will is freedom not a bargain between two choices
        with no inbetween... life is not black and white
        their is grey inbetween... sanranjibit told me that
        expression and it is a wise one!!
        Further more... who made both trees...
        they are metaphours really and one has to go much
        further to realise the true meaning of any existence
        not just human existence.
        We may not overcome God... so why are we so accepting
        of all that we do not know or can comprehend
        as in life we want facts on matters we do not just jump in with both feet.... we sit on the edge and watch and waite and really what is out in that vast multiverse
        is so beyond us we are only tipping the iceburge!!
        to be so accepting and not question is not the way to open our minds to the key within....
        many projects are making discoveries and showing hideen secrets connected to dealing with and reveiling the true meaning to our existence and what we are all about!!
        At the end of it all what it boils down to is not
        how we are so divided by different religions but
        to look at the human race as a collective family
        under one conciousness within this small planet earth!!
        There is too much we do not know of which we are receiving an insight via projects like Camelot!!
        I will do a post on it soon!!
        Who is really fleeing is those who do not search outside
        the box of which is our comfort zone...
        dealing with reality is dealing with and facing
        all aspects of uncharted waters and that is a work in progress!!
        without realising stmss, your last paragragraph is the
        most profound... but it is how we each perceive it
        Is it for ones comfort zone or to step into uncharted waters to see the real reasons for life!!
        
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        stmss
        
        http://hopechild1.blog.co.uk
        
        Friday, 06. Nov, 2009 @ 08:16:29
        
        "human race as a collective family
        under one conciousness within this small planet earth!!"
        
        That Julie is the essence of what Hope Child is all about.
        
        Remember we each only have a very small map and the map is not the territory.
        
        You may think of someone who follows the map that a fundamentalist religion provides as small minded because they do not explore outside of it.
        
        However, they take great comfort from their map, they know where they are and are secure within it.
        
        They are not right or wrong;just sticking religiously to their map!
        
        Now you Julie have a map of the galaxies and are happy and free, roaming around, comfortable with all you find.
        
        I'm honoured that we have a galaxy strider within our midst and pleased that you share your information with us when you touch base.
        
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        juliepenkova ^Pro
        
        http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
        
        Friday, 06. Nov, 2009 @ 11:40:53
        
        Hopechild as a group I felt was to express "Hope"
        to step outside of our comfort zone can be challenging
        but within this sadly the human race is devided
        in thought matter and deed!!
        It will be very wonderful to bypass this...
        sadly I do not see this happeneing with religious devision
        and those who reinforce their belief every chance they get
        as the only belief that is right!!
        This has to be acknowleged everyones map is indeed individual and if matters can be expressed in the light
        then we could debate on a level where reinforcement of one's belief could be seen as understanding others beliefs with the same respect!!
        Collective unconcious is far from how we are at present
        and our own maps indeed give individual comfort
        all I ask is that within this group that we do not claim every chance we get that our religion is the true
        one....
        Collective family will never be with this constant
        separation within heart and mind!!
        Respect each individual map works both ways
        I hope others reading this will also appreciate this comment stmss....
        and hope is for all !!
        
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- SeasideMan ^Pro
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 14:09:59
That description of the Christian attitude to this is essentially accurate. It boils down to carrot and stick: do what we say and get the carrot, don't and get the stick. It's a choice in the same way that blackmail and extortion provide choices (as the 3rd video makes clear).

But there is an important issue before this one, which is:

Does the wielder of the carrot and stick actually exist?

If, like me, you think that god is probably a mythical figure created by humans then the carrot and stick vanish, leaving a far freer choice about how to live your life. You still have responsibilities to others and yourself, but ones to a probably mythical, invisible sky fairy disappear.

As Douglas Adams said: "isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too"?

Tom.
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- Miza-T
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 17:02:33
Very good!
I had a good laugh watching these!

True...BUT if you don't believe in God you are not going to be punished, right? If it doesn't exists, nothing will happen! This is just a good metaphor! Sarcastic metaphor!

Growing up as a partially catholic I can't remember anyone anytime telling me I had free will....

That is why I am only "partially" catholic.
- - SeasideMan ^Pro
  - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 17:19:52
  Hi Miza, the official Catholic view on free will is that we do have it, but that it is limited as unlimited free will would be a denial of grace. Thus god can remain omnipotent and omniscient and yet humans still can make (some) choices...
  - - Miza-T
    - Friday, 06. Nov, 2009 @ 10:51:25
    Thank you Tom.
    They may have it in their doctrine yes, but that is not what I learned from childwood experience.
    And that is why I am not a big fan of priests.
    
    All I remember is:
    You can't do this, it's a sin!
    You can't do that,it's a sin!
    
    And I didn't feel I had free will at all!
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- paulinemom
- Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 17:22:45
I am sorry....

This is the first time I have actually looked at a video link which is SUPPOSED to enhance the subject of the blog and found it a waste of time...

My apologies, for your post...had you not added the video I would have found some suitable reply...

This time I do actually refrain from comment.
P
- - SeasideMan ^Pro
  - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 20:42:22
  You surprise me Pauline. I thought the video was clear, easy to understand and accurate.
  - - juliepenkova ^Pro
    - http://juliepenkova.blog.co.uk
    - Wednesday, 04. Nov, 2009 @ 21:20:49
    I agree Tom... it was simple and to the crusial point
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  - - paulinemom
    - Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 14:58:08
    Perhaps I have been a little harsh...but I DID NOT LIKE THE VIDEO.... I felt that it did not enhance the topic, it made it a 'child perspective' and not that good.
    
    If I ignore the video and just answer the post as written I will give my oppinion on the question....as indead is a good question.
    
    P xx
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- safriz
- http://www.conspiror.blog.co.uk
- Thursday, 05. Nov, 2009 @ 00:01:47
I didnt watch the video,but i agree that purely on religious basis we are not given a complete and unconditional freewill.Its there,but limited.
But the again,non eof us can say that they are completely in control.Religion or not,we are limited in aour capabilities,resources and hence freewill is limited.
In my opinion,if we were given ultimate authority,we would have wrecked havoc in the Universe.The limited authority and freewill we got is not being used very well,or is it?
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- paulinemom
- Friday, 06. Nov, 2009 @ 17:46:16
Forgive me....I was perhaps a little harsh when I said I would not comment...but I felt the use of the U Tube thing was 'childish' and detracted from your question.

Whilst some would disagree...fine that is what we are here for....debate...

I have not had time today to read all the posts and comments as I would normally do and comment where I feel appropriate to each comment...but I will now give you my own oppinion

Free will is something we all have, but regretfully the use of renders us open to punishment.

I am not going to follow as I presume many have....the religious point of view...but one of LIFE.

We do have the free will to follow our Religions...but many are persecuteded....no wonder why when today on the news...a Military man in Texas killed 9 and maimed 30+ from his own regiment....It makes unititiated minds turn against some people.

We do not have the say anymore in political items....government take charge and say...YOU WILL ADHERE..Fine we have the freedom to vote...but after voting....we have no say

I would like to amplify on this....later.

P xx
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- wordwalker
- Saturday, 14. Nov, 2009 @ 17:53:24
we have free will

but a responsibility at the same time

we all share this earth and so we all have a responsibility to share it wisely with one another

so you can do what you want,as long as you harm no one, and right everyone. if you choose to harm people or deny them their rights, then your free will will grant you punishment.

its like standing on the edge of a cliff. you have the free will to walk away, or to jump and to kill yourself.

And that gun in your face that you mentioned, well its you who pulls its trigger.
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